Remove estimations where score data is available for osu! difficulty calculations #27691

Finadoggie · 2024-03-22T06:47:17Z

On non-CL lazer scores, extra slider data means certain estimations are no longer required.

For effective miss count, HitResults.Miss + HitResults.LargeTickMiss is used.

For sliderends dropped, HitResults.SmallTickMiss is used.

To my understanding, LargeTickMiss includes slider ticks and reverse arrows, the two parts that can break your combo, while SmallTickMiss is for sliderends. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Score data for non-CL scores includes sliderends dropped, meaning no need to estimate. CL scores are still estimated.

…or classic" This reverts commit 941c048.

No need to estimate misses for non-CL scores.

Miss count fix

Use actual sliderends dropped instead of estimating

Very much open to discussion on if these should be weighed differently

bdach · 2024-03-22T06:55:04Z

I am not sure the "available" score data in question can be used. We've previously expressed worry that this was going to spiral into two separate implementations of pp for classic and non-classic scores.

Finadoggie · 2024-03-22T08:28:31Z

My bad, I was not aware of these conversations. Could you drop a link to them so I can read through them?

bdach · 2024-03-22T09:16:44Z

#21938 would be a good starting point I guess

Natelytle · 2024-03-22T16:09:44Z

Stan's decision of splitting the calculator into 2 parts for classic and non-classic is a direction I personally dislike, and the way Fina is doing it here is the way I would approach it myself. I don't see any harm in using the new metrics, and PP spiraling into 2 calculators should only happen if per note judgements ever become available, and prove to give much better results than without them. These new metrics are easily estimable, and the existing estimations can just be made harsher if they prove to give an advantage to stable scores.

Givikap120 · 2024-03-22T16:54:26Z

Why is this only using additional data if slideracc enabled?
Lazer scores with CL mods also have additional data that should be used to get more accurate result.

Flamiii · 2024-03-22T20:06:07Z

The implications of a change like this are massive. If I set scores with sliderbreaks, I will only ever be punished more on lazer than I would be if I played on stable. I play on lazer as my main client, but a change like this on its own would make me consider moving back to stable because I don't want to play with something like this that is just a clear disadvantage. You could try tuning the estimations for stable scores to be more harsh, but I doubt people would be happy with that and I'm honestly not sure if that's even possible. The complexity to balance this kind of change is so high that I don't think it's worth the trouble to begin with.

Finadoggie · 2024-03-22T20:13:52Z

@Flamiii you’re already at an objective disadvantage if you play on lazer. This arguably helps you since it means miss estimations can no longer assume you may have sliderbroke where you didn’t. Any non-cl 1 miss plays where the break was in the middle are buffed. Same for plays on hard slider maps where you broke but didn’t drop any sliderends.

Flamiii · 2024-03-22T20:51:13Z

If by "objective disadvantage" you mean slideracc, I play on lazer because I'm certain that will be taken into account in the future (#27063). The scenario I'm thinking of which happens quite a bit is the one where a player misses near the end of a map but also sliderbreaks 2 times afterwards. In stable, this play is counted as a 1 miss and the sliderbreaks only negatively impact your accuracy. With these changes in lazer, this play would be treated as if it was a 3 miss. As far as I know, there really isn't a way to adjust stable's estimation to make this scenario balanced because the relevant information just isn't there. There are some situations where you're punished a bit less, but the scenario I mentioned is extremely common and you would be punished way more for playing on lazer with these changes.

Edit: It's also worth noting that using HitResults.LargeTickMiss to increase the effective miss count means that missing buzz sliders or any fast sliders with many sliderticks will be incredibly punishing. For example, misaiming a buzz slider with 5 repeats and missing it entirely would increase the effective miss count by 6, which would basically kill any score.

Rekunan · 2024-03-22T22:07:54Z

there really isn't a way to adjust stable's estimation

There actually is a way, if you take a look at the function in question, we could, for example, lower fullComboThreshold to make it assume there were more misses than before, and if you look at the changes in this pr, this function is only used if CL with slideracc is on.

misaiming a buzz slider with 5 repeats ... would basically kill any score

This is a valid point, however, I can assure you that future work will be done to account for this.

Flamiii · 2024-03-22T22:41:46Z

There actually is a way, if you take a look at the function in question, we could, for example, lower fullComboThreshold to make it assume there were more misses than before, and if you look at the changes in this pr, this function is only used if CL with slideracc is on.

I see. As long as these changes are balanced properly, I have no issues with them.

Finadoggie · 2024-03-22T23:45:26Z

shoot I hit the wrong button

Finadoggie · 2024-03-22T23:49:08Z

The scenario I'm thinking of which happens quite a bit is the one where a player misses near the end of a map but also sliderbreaks 2 times afterwards.

Ok but again this is already a thing. Sliderbreaks by missing the slider head are already counted as misses in lazer, so this scenario can already happen without any pp changes.

It's also worth noting that using HitResults.LargeTickMiss to increase the effective miss count means that missing buzz sliders or any fast sliders with many sliderticks will be incredibly punishing. For example, misaiming a buzz slider with 5 repeats and missing it entirely would increase the effective miss count by 6, which would basically kill any score.

I know, I'm more apprehensive about that part and wanted to spark discussion for that specifically.
Also buzz sliders are a lot more forgiving in lazer anyways so a late tap leading to complete score annihilation isn't something I'm worried about.

The crux of the matter is, some scores will be punished by being unable to slip through the cracks. That's inevitable. The gain of scores no longer being undeservingly punished from estimations counteracts this and, at least in my personal opinion, is a fair trade off.

As per suggestion by givikap, I was not aware that non-legacy cl scores stored this data

…into estimation-removal

@Flamiii

After letting the comments @Flamiii left brew for a while, I realized they were very much right about the buzz slider thing. As such, I've implemented a quick and dirty untested fix that will hopefully have zero unintended side-effects :) I don't see this as a permanent or final solution yet. There's definitely some potential issues/inaccuracies that could arise with maps like Notch Hell or IOException's Black Rover, but afaik this implementation would not cause any issues that stable doesn't already have.

Givikap120 · 2024-04-12T06:51:34Z

osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/Difficulty/OsuPerformanceCalculator.cs

+            if (!score.Mods.Any(h => h is OsuModClassic cl && cl.NoSliderHeadAccuracy.Value))
+                effectiveMissCount = countMiss; 
+            else
+                effectiveMissCount = calculateEffectiveMissCount(osuAttributes);


using raw effectiveMissCount for anything other than stable scores is bad

Any reason why…?

you already used amount missed sliderends in lazer CL scores
but now you're trying to use estimator (that's almost always outputting lower value than normal misscount)
this doesn't makes any sense

Givikap120 · 2024-04-12T06:54:52Z

osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/Difficulty/OsuPerformanceCalculator.cs

@@ -39,8 +41,14 @@ protected override PerformanceAttributes CreatePerformanceAttributes(ScoreInfo s
            countOk = score.Statistics.GetValueOrDefault(HitResult.Ok);
            countMeh = score.Statistics.GetValueOrDefault(HitResult.Meh);
            countMiss = score.Statistics.GetValueOrDefault(HitResult.Miss);
-            effectiveMissCount = calculateEffectiveMissCount(osuAttributes);
+            countLargeTickMiss = score.Statistics.GetValueOrDefault(HitResult.LargeTickMiss);
+            countSliderEndsDropped = score.Statistics.GetValueOrDefault(HitResult.SmallTickMiss);


HitResult.SmallTickMiss equals to lost sliderends only in Slideracc disabled scores
consider using HitResult.SliderTailHit

This thing works

if (!score.Mods.Any(h => h is OsuModClassic cl && cl.NoSliderHeadAccuracy.Value)) { countSliderEndsDropped = osuAttributes.SliderCount - score.Statistics.GetValueOrDefault(HitResult.SliderTailHit); }

Givikap120 · 2024-04-12T06:57:11Z

osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/Difficulty/OsuPerformanceCalculator.cs

+                if (score.IsLegacyScore)
+                    estimateSliderEndsDropped = Math.Clamp(Math.Min(countOk + countMeh + countMiss, attributes.MaxCombo - scoreMaxCombo), 0, estimateDifficultSliders);
+                else
+                    estimateSliderEndsDropped = countSliderEndsDropped;


this is incorrect
you should also use HitResult.LargeTickMiss here

What about this is incorrect?

I’m hesitant to do that since I’d imagine values using estimateSliderEndsDropped are balanced around sliderend drops, not sliderend drops + other stuff

what if you hit all sliderends but missed all reverses?
you will still get full slideraim value?

What about this is incorrect?

I’m hesitant to do that since I’d imagine values using estimateSliderEndsDropped are balanced around sliderend drops, not sliderend drops + other stuff

also, it's not balanced around sliderend drops, because in case where you not dropped sliderend but sliderbroke - you almost instantly loosing almost all slider pp, so adding sliderbreaks here is actually always same or more lenient than using estimator

also change it to Math.Min(countSliderEndsDropped + countLargeTickMiss, estimateDifficultSliders);
because otherwise you can get negative pp by missing to many sliderends

osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/Difficulty/OsuPerformanceCalculator.cs

Givikap120 · 2024-04-12T14:06:32Z

#27831

Givikap120 · 2024-04-15T14:37:02Z

Actually, new score data can allow using 3 types of aim instead of 2:

Only notes
Notes + LargeSliderTicks (reverses and sliderpoints)
Notes + LargeSliderTicks + SliderEnds

This will make slider judgements even more accurate. But it's out of scope of this PR

cdwcgt · 2024-04-19T02:52:44Z

I think we can add a bool useSliderHead
Because we are likely to use this value frequently in future
like taiko's isConvert

osu/osu.Game.Rulesets.Taiko/Difficulty/TaikoPerformanceCalculator.cs

Line 45 in 15d286e

bool isConvert = score.BeatmapInfo!.Ruleset.OnlineID != 1;

oops

Finadoggie · 2024-04-19T23:09:44Z

useSliderHead is used for sliderend stuffs to ensure compliance with this statement from ppy

For future notice: yes, this quote is in direct regards to pp.

cdwcgt · 2024-04-20T13:58:07Z

useClassicSlider may better if it not only affects the slider head?

…ingly)

Finadoggie and others added 8 commits March 21, 2024 19:02

Make length bonus account for sliders, use proper misscount for classic

941c048

Use actual sliderends dropped instead of estimating

4db6f28

Score data for non-CL scores includes sliderends dropped, meaning no need to estimate. CL scores are still estimated.

Revert "Make length bonus account for sliders, use proper misscount f…

3dafdc0

…or classic" This reverts commit 941c048.

Use miss count for effective miss count

8408455

No need to estimate misses for non-CL scores.

Merge pull request #1 from Finadoggie/miss-count-fix

12afa8d

Miss count fix

Merge branch 'estimation-removal' into dropped-tail-fix

eb30b4a

Merge pull request #2 from Finadoggie/dropped-tail-fix

c9e3c10

Use actual sliderends dropped instead of estimating

Update OsuPerformanceCalculator.cs

b0d20e6

pull-request-size bot added the size/S label Mar 22, 2024

Add slider ticks and reverse arrows to effective misscount

6fe478c

Very much open to discussion on if these should be weighed differently

bdach added the area:difficulty label Mar 22, 2024

Finadoggie closed this Mar 22, 2024

Finadoggie reopened this Mar 22, 2024

Finadoggie and others added 4 commits March 23, 2024 14:27

Merge branch 'master' into estimation-removal

4f5f0e5

Use sliderend data for all non-legacy scores

58bc184

As per suggestion by givikap, I was not aware that non-legacy cl scores stored this data

Merge branch 'estimation-removal' of https://github.com/Finadoggie/osu …

c24f99e

…into estimation-removal

Finadoggie marked this pull request as draft April 11, 2024 17:28

removed large tick misses from effectivemisscount

dd17c89

Givikap120 suggested changes Apr 12, 2024

View reviewed changes

Finadoggie added 4 commits April 19, 2024 16:03

Add bool useSliderHead

ca24601

Fix getting slider head drops

77814ec

Clamp estimatedSliderEndsDrop

759a826

Re-add bool useSliderHead

4a7b813

oops

fix code formatting

d1dcac0

Renamed useSliderHead to useClassicSlider (and refactored code accord…

4fe55d4

…ingly)

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Remove estimations where score data is available for osu! difficulty calculations #27691

Remove estimations where score data is available for osu! difficulty calculations #27691

Finadoggie commented Mar 22, 2024

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Remove estimations where score data is available for osu! difficulty calculations #27691

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Remove estimations where score data is available for osu! difficulty calculations #27691

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